Curse

Epinephrine · Aug 25, 2005, 07:32 PM // 19:32

There is no reason for the horrendously long recharge times if you can only have 1 up at a time. As it is they will be greatly reduced in number anyway, and in power. To make it so the only existing spirit can be killed in 2 hits and it takes 60 seconds to make another is ludicrously slow. Halving the recharge time would have no effect on the "spam" builds with oath shot, but would allow for quicker replacement of a downed spirit by normal means.

Yes, we want things balanced, not whack-a-moled to the point of being useless. Rituals were big powers, thus a 5% penalty and long recharge, with a single skill to kill them off.

Nobody used them really, they were too weak. Enter the Spirits: they were altered to be killable - this made them much more vulnerable, no death penalty, but you could have several up. I doubt they were meant to be spammed the way they were, but three rangers could put down three copies of a spirit so that if one died there would still be others up. Was too powerful, largely due to the spamming (NR) and the fact that spirits were boosting other spitirts health.

New nerfing. Spirits are still killable, but you can only have one up - no backup for if it goes down. NR is gone, so spamming is gone. The boosting of health on other spirits is likewise gone. We are now down to a spirit that can be killed fast, still has a long recharge but only one can be up...

C'mon, that's dumb - no scientist in his right mind (or game skill balancer) adjusts that many parameters all at once when looking for balance. Okay, so since there is little point in tryng to put down two copies (nerf #1) of (for example) frozen soil, you carry one on each of your 3 rangers. If one gets killed (now easy, no health boosts to them, nerf#2) you can quickly plant another (oops, casting time is too slow to stop the res signet...). Hmm. Seems like the double nerf may have killed the Frozen Soil.

Had they instituted either of those it would have helped - either no multiples - OR - no bonus from fertile season. Nerfing both aspects at once may well kill the use of many spirits.

I am all for balance, but do it responsibly - change things one factor at a time,make gradual changes to skills - sudden gigantic swings like this and you are very apt to miss your target.

Phades · Aug 25, 2005, 08:25 PM // 20:25

Examine the potential duration versus the recharge time before stating that having the spirits killable is unreasonable. I can direct you to a few enchantments, spells, and a select other skills, that if they are interupted, denied, or otherwise removed, then the effectivly do nothing until their long cool down expires as well.

With quickening zephry active, you are still looking at greater than a 4:1 uptime versus downtime with spirits at high skill levels. Advocating that they should be difficult or unkillable would be making them into another broken game mechanic we call sustained enchantments. While the individual enchantments are rather harmless, but when combined with layers of enchantments on top of them, with little to no down time, and other forms of energy regeneration it is what caused part of the problem prior to the previous nature's renewal version.

Imagine if every skill followed the pattern of uptime versus downtime that spirits and sustained enchantments follow. Dwarven battle stance that lasts 60s and refreshes every 30, meteor showers lasting 120s and refreshing every 60s and so on. If anything, all skills should probably follow the defensive stances ratio of 1:3 to 1:6, in order to force diversity, but that of course doesnt address things like oath shot.

entropy · Aug 25, 2005, 08:32 PM // 20:32

I totally agree with epinephrine I have a R/Mo and the ranger is by far my favorite character. And the fact is that having only 1 at a time and they take like 2 hits and are gone with a 60 second recharge makes spirits completely useless like 3/4 of the necro skill line under NR. NR was overpowered and they fixed it but overall i mean come on. So basically the only way to keep any spirit up is with oath shot and like 2-3 spirit people. I've never spammed spirits and i don't care if people don't believe me but seriously spirits are useless in PvP totally now. I ususally play comp arena cause its so addictive and with only one spirit in the entire radius it isn't to hard to take out.
I swear everyone hates rangers though its true they are the most goddamn annoying pvp char ever if your playing against them...

Epinephrine · Aug 25, 2005, 08:43 PM // 20:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

Examine the potential duration versus the recharge time before stating that having the spirits killable is unreasonable. I can direct you to a few enchantments, spells, and a select other skills, that if they are interupted, denied, or otherwise removed, then the effectivly do nothing until their long cool down expires as well..

Yes, but there are lamentably few ways to remove an enchantment, and enchantment removals are slow. In addition, enchantments are beneficial to you and bad for your opponent, while Nature rituals affect everyone - they thus might be good for you and might be bad for your opponent. Nature rituals depend on being up to have an effect - and the effect is on everyone.

If an enchantment could be killed by targetting it for 2 seconds there would be no enchantments up, ever. Spirits are horribly vulnerable as it it - yes, it has a great ratio as you put it, but given that it can be quashed in less time than it takes to cast without even using a skill to do it... I mean, come on - it can be cancelled by simply hitting it a bit. No "counter-spirit" spell taking a slot, like a hex or enchantment removal does. Every character is equipped with a spirit killer.

An enchantment has a duration and recharge period, and is vulnerable to a skill from the opponent - often a skill with a fairly long recharge itself - thus requiring the use both of a skill and rendering you unable to desroy other encantments during the downtime. There is no similar limitation on how you get rid of spirits. As fast as you can deal damage you can be killing them. And they aren't beneficial even - they don't necessarily help your side any more than your opponents - they can if you happen to be built for the conditions better,but if that's the case your opponent simply alt-tabs to the spirit and kills it in 3 seconds, and you can wait a minute for your next try.

franning · Aug 25, 2005, 08:49 PM // 20:49

Let's stop all this Hypothesis and play over the weekend and see how it really goes.

One more day.. WOOT

Tuna · Aug 25, 2005, 08:53 PM // 20:53

Somehow making 6 skills useless and by doing so making 30% of skills viable sounds like a good tradeoff to me.

Epinephrine · Aug 25, 2005, 08:53 PM // 20:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tuna

Somehow making 6 skills useless and by doing so making 30% of skills viable sounds like a good tradeoff to me.

Lol - I don't give a rat's ass about the NR nerf - it needed a nerf! And it was NR that was making those skills useless, not the other rituals that are shot to hell. I agree that spirits shouldn't have affected other spirits - OR - that you shouldn't be able to have multiples. I object to the nasty effects on the less potent types of spirit - the Frozen Soil that is pointless now because they can just kill it fast and then hit res signet. There's only the one frozen soil, so it won't be hard to find, can't get another one up before a res signet goes off, and it has low hitpoint because it doesn't benefit from fertile season etc...

Quote:

Originally Posted by franning

Let's stop all this Hypothesis and play over the weekend and see how it really goes.

One more day.. WOOT

I agree, it's hard to tell for certain till we see it in motion, but you can bet if I play a spiking team I'll just zap the Fertile Season as soon as it hits. level 8 spirit.... bwahahahaah

zehly · Aug 25, 2005, 09:08 PM // 21:08

I heard this from the a source I trust and will not reveal, but:

"...[sometimes] the skills that seem overly powerful are not the ones that need to be [nerfed], it might very well be the skills that the are intended to [counter] them are merely underpowered, ..."

Eet GnomeSmasher · Aug 25, 2005, 09:12 PM // 21:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phades

I can direct you to a few enchantments, spells, and a select other skills, that if they are interupted, denied, or otherwise removed, then the effectivly do nothing until their long cool down expires as well.

But enchantments don't benefit/hurt BOTH sides. QZ could potentially help the other team as well...and if it doesnt it only takes a few whacks of the sword to get rid of the spirit. Try doing that to an enchantment... Major suckage.

Also, enchantments don't take 5 agonizingly long seconds to cast....

Jura · Aug 25, 2005, 10:06 PM // 22:06

I just wanted to extend a heartfelt "Welcome Back" to the Healing Balls.

Ensign · Aug 25, 2005, 10:12 PM // 22:12

My gut feeling is that after this change, the recharges on spirits should probably be reduced slightly, and the durability of a given spirit should be upped a bit. Spirits being spammed was an abuse, but in many ways you had to spam them in order to keep them up with any consistency.

We'll see how this plays out though. It's going to take people a while to figure out how to use Spirits tactically again

Peace,
-CxE

zehly · Aug 25, 2005, 10:45 PM // 22:45

Healing balls FTW...
and...
Well of Profane, FTW.

cookiehoarder · Aug 25, 2005, 10:51 PM // 22:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by zehly

Healing balls FTW...
and...
Well of Profane, FTW.

I doubt healing balls will be good. Everyone is going to run massive hexes, enchantment removel etc. IMO.

Zeru · Aug 25, 2005, 10:57 PM // 22:57

Yeah enchant removal sure owns healing balls

Hopefully rend, chilly, and lingering get a buff though.

Weezer_Blue · Aug 25, 2005, 11:24 PM // 23:24

They need to make their max level 20 so that they at least can take a beating worth 480 hitpoints. The way it will be shortly, if I see a spirit I don't like, I'll just wand it to death in a few seconds (while healing imbetween). They can be used effectively, but the way they are removed is so rediculously easy, and the time it takes to recast them so long, that there isn't much use unless they are spammed every chance you get. I do not support spirit spamming builds. I hate them. But at least make Spirits useful to an extent.

Vindexus · Aug 25, 2005, 11:26 PM // 23:26

Spirits will be useless after this patch. Any good team will wand something they don't want down to nothing in no time.

PaulOtt · Aug 25, 2005, 11:44 PM // 23:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vindexus

Spirits will be useless after this patch. Any good team will wand something they don't want down to nothing in no time.

Assumptions:

You're close enough to attack
You have line of sight
Your time couldn't be better spent otherwise

Edit: Not picking on you in particular Vindexus, it is just odd to hear so many people talking about wanding spirits when spirits (if used) will likely be placed behind enemy lines yet still covering the fighting location. Trying to wand them sounds like a good recipe to get drawn in.

Krack Jacker · Aug 25, 2005, 11:50 PM // 23:50

bringing a spirit gonna be totally useless now, kill it 1 second lolz only good if everyone brings like the same spirit so they can keep it going or they use serpants quickness etc. you have to have some tactics when using spirits now. HENCE WHAT ANET WANTED ALL ALONG!!

Vindexus · Aug 25, 2005, 11:55 PM // 23:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by PaulOtt

Assumptions:

You're close enough to attack
You have line of sight
Your time couldn't be better spent otherwise

Edit: Not picking on you in particular Vindexus, it is just odd to hear so many people talking about wanding spirits when spirits (if used) will likely be placed behind enemy lines yet still covering the fighting location. Trying to wand them sounds like a good recipe to get drawn in.

Your warriors could do it then.

Zeru · Aug 26, 2005, 12:00 AM // 00:00

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vindexus

Your warriors could do it then.

At the danger of running out of healing range. Either that or you will have to push the enemy back.

Tactically placed spirits will still give your team an advantage if your build is configured to it. Only difference from before is that placement clearly matters, whereas before with a fertile up it would take too long for it to work so putting them anywhere within range would work.